Introduction
Every game has rules and every community needs rules to cooperate. This article includes a proposal to create a new rule for the Eden community, an explanation of a situation that led to this proposal, and an exploration of the philosophy of rules.
Table of Contents
This article is organized into the following sections:
- Introduction
- Proposal
- Technical Improvements
- Discrepancies
- Aftermath
- Mistakes Happen
- Ideathon Rules
- Rules without Rulers
Proposal
It’s helpful to build systems to enable our community to cooperate more smoothly and set an example for other communities in the future. To help the Eden community and other communities better cooperate, I propose the following:
Update:
I made the following proposal to help ensure the consensus submissions are correct in future meetings and respect is given fairly. This is kind of a first draft of the proposal but I think it would work well. I’m still working on an article about this and will share when ready. Feedback would be appreciated. Thanks!
Should we implement the following process to ensure that consensus submissions are correct?
If the participants of a breakout room do not submit on-chain transactions with at least 66% consensus in their breakout rooms, then nobody in the breakout room receives EOS or EDEN respect for that meeting. If anyone does not submit their consensus results on-chain, then they will not receive EOS or EDEN respect for that meeting. If there are discrepancies in the consensus submissions or technical issues in the future, then the participants in the breakout room have up to one week to either submit consensus via an MSIG or make a proposal to the Eden+Fractal council to receive EOS and EDEN respect.
Make proposal on Consortium -
Make the following rules:
If a breakout room does not reach 66% consensus in their breakout rooms, then nobody in the room receives EOS or EDEN respect.
If anyone does not submit their results with consensus, then they will not receive EOS or EDEN respect.
If there are discrepancies in the future that are not resolved, all people in the sign an MSIG after the meeting. One week after the meeting. Using MSIG on EOS.
With the following template
React app should prompt:
Are you sure with your results?
If your results are not in consensus with
This can save time in the future
Within 1 hour
If there are any issues, anyone can create an msig with all of the participants in the room. This app should be released soon to help make it easier for all. For now can watch this tutorial or ask someone to help make an msig
https://pomelo.io/grants/msig.app
Following format may be used
Delegate: eosaccount11 , Levels: eosaccount22, eosaccounts33, …
Improvements
In addition to the proposal above, we also recommend the following technical improvements to the Eden.Fractal software.
Patrick made a couple greet suggestions
Screenshot warning / prompt to make sure it’s correct
The prompt could also include link to Eden fractal account t to double check other people’s results
He also suggested that there is a backup plan. People make mistakes and the software may not always work perfectly in the hour after breakout rooms
agreement can also make it more clear.
https://hive.blog/fractal/@fractallymike/when-is-a-ruler-not-a-ruler
should it be 3 days or should it be the decided by the council in the following week?
If someone forgets their wallet on vacation for one or two weeks then does that mean that shouldn’t be able to participate?
Discrepancies
I think that this section could probably just be a sentence or few sentences long, then link to a different page that has the images of discrepencies and details of discrepencies. Can just keep it simple here and say that the discrepencies were small and seemed amiable for everyone . Similar to to the section about aftermath, it doesn’t need to be long and it is better if it is short.
There are three discrepancies in room 2:
- Some people voted Vlad as level 1 and some people did not vote Vlad as level 1.
- Some people voted Felix at a higher level than Extra and some people voted Extra at a higher level than Felix.
- Duane submitted results with himself as level 6, but Pascal was level 6 in the other consensus submissions.
We spoke about this for a while and…
Currently there are no formal rules in Eden ƒractal. There are many informal rules that community members follow and use to better cooperate, but previously we did not have a consensus process for making formal rules. Now that the community has adopted the Eden+Fractal process and approved our first proposal, we are now empowered to make more formal rules to help everyone cooperate more smoothly, efficiently, and enjoyably.
The Eden+Fractal process is derived from the Eden Elections process and the ƒractally process. These can both be viewed as consensus games and, like any other games, they need some rules to help people play together. The ƒractally whitepaper states, “Everyone has an incentive to negotiate with you in weekly meetings because 4 out of 6 people agree or no one earns Respect.”
In the Genesis ƒractal, this rule was made clear and there were times when participants did not earn respect points because they didn’t submit their consensus results on time. In Eden Elections, there have been multiple times when a breakout room did not reach a supermajority consensus on a delegate and no delegate was elected.
In order for them to work, we need rules.
According to page x of fractally whitepaper, people need to . Also maybe link to the genesis fractal agreement and una too. Could link to agreement
It’s helpful to design and implement systems to enable our community to cooperate more smoothly and set an example for other communities in the future
The rules of Eden ƒractal have not been formally
You can see the discrepancies below in this table on EOS Authority and this page with screenshots of each transaction.
Hey @pnc, @duane#0528 , @ExtraLiberty#3463 , @Vlad | eosetf.io#6599 , @ChrisBarnes#3103, and @LionFlash#7011
There were three discrepancies in the on-chain data submitted from your breakout room
- Hey everyone, There was a discrepancy in the consensus data this week for room 2. @Vlad | eosetf.io and @Bishop posted that Pascal got level 4 and Duane got level 3. @duane and @pnc both posted that Duane got level 4 and Pascal got level 3. You can see this here:
https://app.consortium.vote/community/ofaqqnelrdwa
Games need rules
According to the
The Importance of Rules
Can cite chris’ responses in ideathon story as good rationale as to why games need rules
can cite explanation of eden fractal as games in dams article and video (timestamp). These are consensus games. Could create article called games and link here. consensus games need rules
Mistakes Happen
Mistakes happen
There were three discrepancies
I signed it because all three discrepencies are resolved or seem agreeable. Duane confirmed with me that pascal was level 6. I saw Vlad joined late and spoke with him after the breakout room. I spoke with felix, who signed the transaction to rank extra higher than himself. Therefore all discrepancies seem to be resolved so I signed it to make it simple and resolve the situation
In this situation we have a high trust community where we’ve known each other for a long time and there is very little monetary value being exchanged
In the future and in other fractal communities there may be less trust amongst community members who don’t know each other so well and more monetary value at stake
It’s helpful to design and implement systems to enable our community to cooperate more smoothly and set an example for other communities in the future
Meeting 23
Account - eden.fractal | EOS Authority
Only 4 submissions in room 1. Extra and Eric didn’t make submit the consensus results. Eric had . Pascal submitted it incorrectly. In addition to the three that we the same, we have this meeting on Video and can timestamp
Consider- RAM and resource issues like this happen often on EOS. So this is already a fairly large barrier. Eric is very smart and technical already and experienced with antelope community. Many other people have no experience. Shanzz also had a similar issue and many other people did as well. Some people didn’t have eos accounts, like illich saratoga.
We have EOS Support and we can lean into this and ask for their help or refer people to their live chat much more often. So this is one big part of the solution already that we’re not really taking advantage of. Especially when rules are in place then people would probably be more motivated to ask EOS Support.
However, there is still a technical barrier for all new people here and we should be careful so that the rules aren’t too restrictive given the technical issues that people will definitely experience
Week 23 MSIG: https://www.bloks.io/msig/dan/week23
Consensus Results: https://eosauthority.com/account/eden.fractal?network=eos&scope=16&table=consenzus&limit=10&index_position=1&key_type=i64&reverse=0&lower_bound=2&upper_bound=2
@EDEN-ƒractal MSIG
Hey all,
There were two issues in the consensus results this week.
- There were six people in room 1 but only four consensus results were posted.
@Eric sent me private message after the breakout room showing that his EOS account had insufficient RAM, but I didn’t see this message until after the meeting ended. I responded to Eric with instructions to buy RAM, so this issue should be resolved in the future.
I’m not sure why @extra didn’t post consensus results, but I was in this room with him and remember him agreeing with the consensus. Extra, please remember to post the consensus results with the react app in future meetings. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions. Thanks!
- @PNC posted a consensus result with Eric at level 6, but Eric was at level 5 in the three other results posted.
I was in this room and am sure that we had consensus according to the other three results, so I’m willing to propose the MSIG now even though we don’t have 4/6 consensus on-chain. I’ll aim to publish the video with timestamps later today so everyone can see the group reach consensus.
Pascal, please let us know if you have any issue with this. If anyone else has issues with this or wants to share other related thoughts then please feel free to share here.
Thanks!
A couple days ago I created a new proposal to set up a system for resolving issues like this and reducing incorrect consensus results in the future. I think it would be great to implement this kind of system soon and would appreciate feedback.
Here is the proposal:
[image:4B9937E7-C9AF-4D1F-83CF-8A6D48950B9D-498-00000F7D643176FD/A97828B9-0CF7-40FD-A295-97F851EB1FF8.png] https://app.consortium.vote/community/ofaqqnelrdwa
I’ve also been writing an article to explain why this kind of system can be helpful for the community. The article is in a very early draft state and I wouldn’t recommend reading it until it’s more ready, but if you’d like then you can view the work in progress at edencreators.com/rules. Looking forward to sharing more soon!
The Importance of Rules
Chris Barnes made some great points about the importance of rules in the following EOS Fireside Chat (55:57):
You can see more about this in our First Ideathon Story
Hey jackbytes,
Thank you for sharing your perspective. I also remember you speaking about a very interesting ideathon submission in last week’s Fireside Chat, so thank you for that as well! Looking forward to learning more!
listen again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez586RUKfYs&list=PLRK9ZLYOWiXNychJ9fb830HONYVZ_7BlP&index=2&t=5420s
Here are some responses to your questions and statements:
>What makes you thing that you could have this exception? There were 179 submissions, on time, at the dead line requested! Let's always play by the rules!
As stated above, I accept that there will not be an exception. Previously I thought that it would have been best for everyone to accept these idea submissions, but I appreciate the value in sticking to the rules as planned and respect the decision of the event organizers.
As for your statement to always play by the rules, I don’t agree. I agree that some rules are certainly better for all and should always be followed without question. I greatly appreciate the value of rules, especially after this experience and hearing thoughtful responses from Chris, yourself, and others. I’ve gained more understanding about the value of rules from this experience and am now writing an article exploring the importance of rules in subjective consensus games.
However, sometimes games are better when we change the rules. Rules can sometimes be too constraining and diminish the quality of experience for people interacting with the rules. There are many situations in which the benefit of rules is not clear and should be questioned. For example, I made a reference above to ‘intent of code is law’ with EOS and ‘code is law’ with Bitcoin. If you leave the keys to your BTC on your desk and someone else takes it, then according to the rules of the Bitcoin protocol the Bitcoin is now theirs. Not your keys, not your bitcoin, as they say. While this system certainly has value and I’m grateful that we have this option, I generally prefer systems like EOS and Eden where communities can play it by ear and use subjective consensus processes to determine the best rules as needed.
Of course, Bitcoin and EOS is only one example. You could also consider this in other contexts, such as entrepreneurship, music, or art. If people always played by the ‘rules’ in these fields, there would be less innovation, cooperation, and beauty for all. With the exponential increase in regulations constraining the veins of society as Elon Musk states (and Dan Larimer tweet about this)… it increasingly becomes impossible to do anything without breaking rules in some jurisdiction. It’s important that we have people who are respectfully exploring the boundaries of the rules and asking if rules are necessary or holding us back
Plus it can provide opportunity for the commmuntky to better learn to play together and better understand rules etc
Storytelling about
Creating a path and education for future participants to learn and enjoy the stories
So, after working many hours to make these ideas as helpful as possible, I felt it was a good idea to ask the questions above to help make the best experiences possible.
Maybe just respond to Jackbytes with link to article and not long paragraphs in discord, but maybe good to inclkude
Not asking for exception or favortism… as stated if it were my decisions …
Impression with Eden is your perception , I love if
Personally I would have preffered to see great ideas liek CETF, idea from Luka, my ideas, and more…
I think this would have made for a better show if the team had used a legitimate decentralized governnace process to determine whthr rules
What makes you thing that you could have this exception? There were 179 submissions, on time, at the dead line requested! Let's always play by the rules! I also would like to ask you to stop asking for favoritism to the organizers. The fact that you are submitting ideas with the title of Eden suggests that they were the ideas of a whole bunch of people using your "presence in EOS." I would rethink this positioning of yours. Even posting your ideas here is this channel after the fact, is not acceptable.
The fact that you are submitting ideas with the title of Eden suggests that they were the ideas of a whole bunch of people using your "presence in EOS." I would rethink this positioning of yours.
I’m not sure what you mean by this…?
>Even posting your ideas here is this channel after the fact, is not acceptable.
Why do you think it is not acceptable?
I think the purpose of the ideathon is essentially to help foster great ideas and experiences in the community. Sharing ideas in the ideathon channel is a good way to help foster great ideas and experiences.
Watch hot sauce ideathon video gallery topic 3- add to ideathon page
Add to ideathon. See how it looks with cignals and dams